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Times New Bastard
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Posted on Friday, May 26th 2023 by orhmeh09https://github.com/weiweihuanghuang/Times-New-Bastard
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@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by graypeggHow does this work? I thought ligatures were just different glyphs stored in the font that would replace some number of other individual characters. Does that mean there's a ligature glyph for every combination of 7 characters?!
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by seba_dos1 | parentThere's a whole, let's say, scripting engine that lets the font decide which glyph is going to be used that goes way further than just simple ligature substitution. People have even implemented "games" as fonts this way: https://www.coderelay.io/fontemon.html
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by skeaker | parentGreat link, I'm impressed by the sort of animations that they were able to fit into a font.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by RobotToaster | parentWell, that's surprisingly addictive.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ghub-mmulet | parentIf anyone is interested I wrote a blog post about how I made fontemon and which type features I used:
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by avgcorrection | parent>Implementation for a seemingly simple logic is surprisingly powerful
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bee_rider | parentHave there been any high profile exploits of these font scripting engines?
I guess that must be where stuff like
It seems quite risky, I'm used to not downloading and executing shady programs, but downloading and executing... characters... is hard to avoid.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by josefx | parentWindows had some security issues in the past. It has a font rendering engine in the kernel.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by epilys | parentOpenType is basically turing-complete via glyph shaping. There's an explanation here: https://litherum.blogspot.com/2019/03/addition-font.html
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fsckboyI'm not sure if the serif-icity is the jarring part, I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within).
I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by frostburg | parentMany of the more complete font families feature stylistic alternatives for certain letters.Usually typesetting software has you manually pick them or select sets, but it could be done as you say.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by seba_dos1 | parent>I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters
Not sure what you're talking about; it did and there are many fonts that use it.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Blahah | parent>I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within).
Agreed! The x-height  (among other things) differs jarringly between the serif and sans fonts used.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by augustk | parentI wish you could specify the x-height of a font in CSS. If you mix serif and sans serif you want them to look like they have the same size. It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected to have the same x-height.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by JusticeJuice | parentThere's a lot of variable typefaces that let you set the x-height, which can be controlled via CSS.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by glasshug | parentSoon! https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/1fae25fa283c708f7...
@ Wednesday, May 31st 2023 by account42 | parent>It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Jeff_Brown | parentYeah, if they were the same size I'm not sure I would even notice.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by gwern | parentYou'd notice in the original screenshot/example linked: https://bouquetoftwelve.tumblr.com/post/186272155342/ommanyt...
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by seba_dos1 | parentThat screenshot has the exact same problem.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by gwern | parentNo, it doesn't. Compare the heights of the 'ri' pairs, for example. In the Github repo, the difference is ginormous, the top of the 'r' is almost past the dot. In the original Tumblr mockup, the top doesn't even reach the same height as the dot. It's still too big to be subtle, but it's better.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mywittyname | parentPeople really seem to hate "handwritten" fonts. Comic Sans is the mainstream example, but there are a lot of other ones.
As others said, stylistic alternatives definitely exist in most font packages, especially commercial ones used with Adobe products. So the fact that they are not widely used outside of graphic design probably goes back to people generally hate fonts that look handwritten for anything besides wedding invitations.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by KerrAvon | parentI see a lot of the "why do people hate Comic Sans" articles on the web think it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations, but this seems like post-hoc rationalization. It's the Comic Sans look specifically that people intensely dislike, not "handwritten" fonts in general.
The original and better case against Comic Sans was that there were much better handwritten, comic-text-style fonts and that Comic Sans was a particularly bad instance of one.
Just ask Dave Gibbons:
>"It's just a shame they couldn't have used just the original font, because it's a real mess. I think it's a particularly ugly letter form," he says. "The other thing that really bugs me that they've used an upper case I with bars on it: it looks completely wrong to the comic eye. And when you see store fronts done in it, it's horrible."
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by justsomehnguy | parent>it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations
It's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations /and the only available for anything 'fancy' on the Average Computer used by Average Joe/.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fsckboy | parentstylistically, my personal taste is that Comic Sans is exactly the right font to use for serious warning signs like in a kitchen, such as "DON'T TOUCH, handle gets HOT" or something. Anything official looking I have a tendency to ignore as boilerplate, but comic sans seems like a personal friendly message directed at me
if any of the objection is to the precise letter drawings, ok fine, give me a different one, but the overall concept, I'm Comic Sans all the way.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by derefr | parentIf you want jarring so that you don't ignore it, use Impact or Copperplate.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fsckboy | parentI completely disagree, though, you're not getting my point. There is a type of "standard" warning that I routinely ignore, the "don't cut yourself with the tablesaw" warnings. Or "knife is sharp". Like, yeah, that's why I'm using the knife.
A warning I won't ignore is one written by a friend about something unusual or unexpected. "The supposedly insulated handle on this pot will melt your fingers off"
I just think that comic sans draws my eye in, in a way that Copperplate instructions from HR do not. Don't tell HR, or they'll start using Comic Sans.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by derefr | parentApologies, I mixed up the font I had meant. I meant to refer to things like https://www.fontspace.com/hardsign-font-f46378, or https://www.fontspace.com/the-ranch-font-f88750, or the various Fraktur fonts that you mostly see in tattoo-art these days. These fonts are not normally used on warning signs. Unless you consider old-west "WANTED" posters to be warning signs.
These are fonts that are not just eye-catching, but actively painful to look at for how striking they are, to the point that they're even maybe a bit hard to read (but you still end up reading them, because it's hard to look away.) These are fonts that scream at you -- fonts HR would never dare to use, even knowing they "work", because it'd be unprofessional to be that attention-grabbing. It'd be the typographic equivalent of blowing an airhorn in a small room in order to interrupt someone.
Or you can go the other way, and just put an actual picture of the grim reaper on your sign: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/58b3vj/stop_prevent_y... .
(Though actually, oddly enough, something about that typography makes me feel threatened even without the image. I think that particular tight leading with all-caps lettering using a high-weight sans-serif font, puts me in mind of specific public civic-engineering uses of typography to warn people away from high-voltage power substations, large AM radio transmitters, hydro-dam spillways, etc. It's a subtle thing, but it's enough to make it really not look like your standard HR print-out. See also: the old shield of the US Department of Civil Defense -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_in_the_United_St.... Seeing that on something is just unsettling -- for purely typographic reasons!)
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by kyle-rb | parentI'm imagining huge Comic Sans lettering: "This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here... nothing valued is here."
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by tomjakubowski | parent100%. A cartoon with the warning helps too.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by brazzledazzle | parentMy favorite comic sans note taped to an office fridge ended with "sorry for the incontinence" and once I had a good chuckle I read the part above it that I had previously ignored.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by boredhedgehog | parent>like a personal friendly message directed at me
Yes, like a clown talking to you while honking his nose. Amusing and ignorable.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by RobotToaster | parentThere's nothing wrong with comic sans, if you're making a comic
You don't use it for a business letter for the same reason you don't use Times New Roman, Garamond, Baskerville, &c, for a comic.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by anonymouskimmer | parentAs GP indicated, the important thing is that Comic Sans doesn't appear handwritten because it lacks variation. Just like good Calligraphy doesn't appear handwritten. In genuine (non-Calligraphic) handwriting there will be minor variations in each letter (say, the letter "s"), even though in general all instances of the letter will be more similar to each other than the same letter in someone else's handwriting.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by User23 | parentBrush Script is the ur-classic. Adobe used to give it away so it showed up literally everywhere
when desktop publishing was first taking off.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by yjftsjthsd-h | parent>I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl.
Why would you want that? It seems like it would be harder to read for no benefit.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by true_religion | parentWhy would you want it? For the same reason as a font like Times New Bastard. For fun. For creative depression. For no good reason at all.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by wishfish | parentFor a handwriting font, it would be fun to have small variations on letters. Just to make it look like something actually handwritten.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by esquivalience | parentI believe it exists and here is a list of reasons for it: https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/introducing_type/introduc...
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by acqq | parentCool:
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by elevation | parentYou might want it for emulating handwriting by choosing glyphs from a series of fonts so that tokens like "IEEE" or "error" aren't uncanny giveaways of the computer-rendering.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fsckboy | parent>Why would you want that?
call me OCD but when I look at stuff written in script my eyes check to see if all the a's are the same, all the b's are the same, all the... and then what I see is manufactured uniformity, a communique from The Machine.
it wouldn't take much variation (say, three different a's) to make me feel a sense of relief that it's warmer and cuddlier
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by huhtenberg | parentIt would've been a neater prank if they'd actually chopped off serifs from the original letters and used those for the sans glyphes.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by ryanjshaw | parentIt gives me flashbacks of bad OCR jobs and trying to copy sensible text out of the resultant messy PDF.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by zerocratesYou get this experience the natural way still when fonts don't include a character and the specified stack doesn't have a good fallback.
I still see it on newspapers' websites when they're using a custom font and the headline contains an accented character.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ForOldHackGive me a font name that will offend more than 97% of the population, like !@^$-!@$!@$-!&%^!@-(*&!-BOLD.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Sohcahtoa82 | parent>!@^$-!@$!@$-!&%^!@-(*&!-BOLD.
Shit, I need to change my password.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by anthk | parentThat might be valid Perl code.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by arrakeenwho needs a font when fontconfig will gladly do this for you by default
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ChrisArchitect(2019)
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by orhmeh09 | parentThis is true, and I know there is sometimes such a convention. However, I can't find it in the guidelines, and I thought it better to preserve the original title as best as possible with 79 characters before someone ekse truncated the title.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ChrisArchitect | parentthe unwritten convention is let us know this is not new or an update on an old story. It's just a courtesy.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by m463This seems to be a font where every character has a serif, but G and T do not.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by yargThe biggest problem with this is that it's too obvious, if you really want to fuck with people it should require more effort for them to tell what's wrong.
An insidious little niggle that grates upon the mind.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by omoikane | parentMaybe Times New Roman, but every seventh letter is Papyrus.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by SeenNotHeard | parentRelated: "Papyrus: The World's 2nd Most Hated Font"
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by computerdork | parentsaw this on SNL when it originally aired, hilarious!
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mc32 | parentSo something like Helvetica but every so often you sneak in Arial?
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by yarg | parentThat wouldn't be bad, but I think you could do something more off-putting with something like deliberately slightly bad kerning.
I'm not sure of the extent to which you could use ligatures to tweak the serifs, rather than remove them completely (if possible - frustration will be maximised if the reader is unable to tell what's wrong, even after they come to believe that something is wrong).
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mattkevan | parentHad the idea a while back to make posters and t-shirts with 'I [heart] Helvetica' on them, but set in Arial to wind up design nerds. But realised that 99.999% of anyone except possibly myself wouldn't notice of care.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by yarg | parentBut it would ruin the day of anyone who did.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by pessimizer | parentIsn't that just Arial?
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by chrisco255 | parentMaybe instead it just ligatures in common typos even though you spell the word correctly:
handle becomes handel
Or strip out past tense:
fined becomes fine
You're always spelled as your;
Oxford commas never;
Two becomes too
Public becomes pubic
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by orhmeh09Note that the title of the page is not "Times New Bastard" but "weiweihuanghuang/Times-New-Bastard: It's Times New Roman but every seventh letter is jarringly sans serif", which I had edited down to "Times-New-Bastard: Times New Roman but every 7th letter is jarringly sans serif".
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by globalise83Now everyone knows which font to use to write passive-aggressive notices for the unknown flatmate who keeps leaving mouldy food in the fridge.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bezier-curve | parentWe need a font for passive aggressive HN submissions as well.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fghorow | parentNope. Use it for grant proposals...
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by motohagiographyIt reminds me of lawyergrams, where the language is constructed to antagonize and threaten while still being logically and legally specific and correct - a kind of ransom note with airs. I'd wonder if some white shoe firm has gone to the trouble of commissioning an in-house font based on similar design principles to this Times New Bastard, just for that purpose.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Aerbil313 | parentThe word you used, "lawyergrams" is so niche that it shows up only in a couple places on internet and no one knows what it means, including dictionaries and ChatGPT.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by motohagiography | parentI have read a great deal of fiction and I write a lot, so sometimes that means having to just make the perfect word.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by gjvcnot very jarring
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bonytNeat. By a strange coincidence, I made something similar yesterday in a script to make each letter in HTML into a different font. I wanted to see if it would end up as an OCR-proof font:
An example: https://tmp.tonybox.net/chbgr.htm
Rasterized and OCR'd: https://tmp.tonybox.net/ocr.pdf
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jredwards | parentSeems you were at least partially successful
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by tailspin2019 | parentVery cool concept
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by toxik | parentMan that Fontemon got my phone steaming hot
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by yscodes | parentSounds interesting. Mind sharing the gist (hehe) of your results?
Big fan of on-a-whim-experiments.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by einpoklum | parentIt would be nice if you could make the effective character sizes more uniform.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by chavesnThose sans-serif spaces tho...
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by nunezBy god, what have you done.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by cyanydeezA virus whose only payload is to replace times new Roman with this
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by m463 | parentthat would (n)ever Work.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Tao3300This font looks like it wants to sell me some organic Cialis.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by naikrovektimes new bararian
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by qwezxcrtyOne can get a similar, extremely ugly effect if one is reading Japanese text rendered on a Chinese language system.
Many kanjis in the Japanese text will default to the glyphs in the system Chinese font. However, the kanas as well as some kanjis are not included in the Chinese font will be rendered with a failback font, frequently in a very different style.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by bobbylarrybobby | parentHan unification was such a silly mistake
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by qwezxcrty | parentThe ideal situation is there is a unified CJ(K) font that covers all the glyphs.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by eNV25 | parentNotoCJK
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by Am4TIfIsER0ppos | parentThere needs to be Latin unification too. How many times is 'a' in unicode?
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by 1una | parent>Many kanjis in the Japanese text will default to the glyphs in the system Chinese font.
There is a solution if you're using Linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Font_configuration/Examples...,_but_other_Latin_fonts_are_preferred
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by elboru | parentSomething similar happens when you use Spanish accent letters (á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ) with fonts that don't include them.
It's amazing to me that many people seem to not notice or care that random letters don't match the font style and they keep using those fonts for Spanish.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mfschSince this font is published under AGPL - is Times New Roman available under an open license? Or is this based on an open alternative?
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by xoxxala | parentDifferent font than TNR.
>Times New Bastard is a modified version of Nimbus Roman No. 9 L and Nimbus Sans
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ybc37Reminds me of Hellvetica. Unfortunately, the website is gone, but the Internet Archive has saved us this gem:
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jredwards | parentThis is beautiful for grating discomfort. And for over the top insanity, there's always Zalgo text
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by nradov | parentCheck out the old tweets from @glitchr_. You can do some wild stuff by exploiting Unicode rendering.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by anthomtb | parentMy phone doesn't render that corr...oh
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by maeln | parentI like zalgo. It teach me a lot about Unicode. I love how diactric are coded, it is very sane, and easy golfable: https://github.com/maeln/zalgo/blob/master/golfed.c
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by zimpenfish | parentI've got an Instagram post titled with Zalgo and it is the only one that instaload can't backup because of the resultant filename. Which amuses me greatly.
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jkingsman | parentIf you're looking for a download link, this appears to be the least sketchy: https://img1.allbestfonts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Hel...
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by zubairshaik | parentThe download link on the Internet Archive seemed to work as well
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by yafbum | parentKeming matters!
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by taneq | parentThere was a path of Exile patch note that said "fixed keming". :)
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by wtf_is_up | parentSpeaking of PoE font bugs, here's an amusing tale of how a GGG dev finally fixed a 6 years old font rendering bug:
@ Monday, May 29th 2023 by taneq | parentNice! GGG has some awesome posts on their dev process. In this case I really hope the resource manager remembered to remove the cached pointer when it unloaded the font, or (until another font is loaded at the same address) it's a use-after-free waiting to happen. :S
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by contravariant | parentHmm, that seems slightly overdone, this just looks like noise to me.
Would be much more annoying if every so often a letter was eve r so s|ightly wrong.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by lostlogin | parentIt looks like a cheesy movie ransom demand letter, with letter cut out of pages of magazines.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by userbinator | parentI was expecting the opposite, mostly sans-serif with the occasional serif, but the keming didn't disappoint.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by lambdasquirrel | parentWow... this is actually impressive. It takes work to make something that's tastefully jarring and awful.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by Hamuko | parentKeming is not important.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by account-5 | parentNot dissimilar to my dyslexia.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by forgotusername6 | parentIf you want to know the science behind this then here is a good video describing the process https://youtu.be/-Y-yKmzP-4U
@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by neverrrootReminds me of a time long gone, when I had too much free time... cool project
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by PxtlReminds me of how Twitter uses an odd font for @usernames where the I and 1 and l have serifs so you can tell them apart, but is otherwise sans serif. Every time I see a username with an I in it it looks weird.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by 91JacobGuys don't worry just set every seventh letter to Times New Roman!
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by AeolunThis is some massive abuse of ligatures. Did they just cover every 6 letter combination? Or do ligatures somehow get to count characters.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by RuqMY EYES
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by richardanayaNihilism in typography
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by ineedasernamemy eyes kept telling me the e was a theta ? symbol.
Visual context really matters and seemingly small or subtle things are, well, jarring or uncomfortable. Sort of the font equivalent of the "uncanny valley"
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by smitty1eI had remained staunchly skeptical about the domestic terrorism talk. Until now.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by anonuits a trojan horse - dont use it. AGPL license means that if you use this anywhere in your code you will need to make that code open source.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by lloydatkinsonI didn't know fonts would be capable of figuring out how many had been typed in order to swap the 7th regardless of which character it was, even with ligatures. That's kind of crazy.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by awinter-pyhave yet to open a postscript file without it looking like this
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by anonzzziesI don't know if it's a thing, but I often say I have font blindness; I don't see the difference in fonts. If I can read it, it is text and I have to really stare for ages to see what's wrong in this case. I would happily read a book with this font and not notice anything wrong, let alone it being jarring.
Edit; same with the hellvetica example; I have to consciously stare and think to see it's not normal; I can read it, so my brain doesn't give two shites about the font, spacing etc.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by bdgLooks like a ransom note.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by tariqrauf| Using it on the Web:
| text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;
this is poetic, event potentially art
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by birb07See https://github.com/Born2Root/Fast-Font for a bionic font using font features as well
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by z3t4It's surprisingly legible.
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by contrarian1234The developer has a great personal webpage:
great trollin' :))
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by shreyshnaccountmy father was a centurian, you see. his name was naughtius maximus...
@ Saturday, May 27th 2023 by DubiousPusherI've never built a font. I had no idea you could do something procedural with them like this. I always assumed they were just a bunch of glyphs in a file.
@ Sunday, May 28th 2023 by snprajwalNow we need an inverted version of this where every seventh letter of a sans serif font is jarringly serif
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